The Legal Department

Intentional Professional Development In The Legal Department: Scott Westfahl, Director Harvard Law School Executive Education

The Legal Department | Scott Westfahl | Intentional Professional Development


Lawyers focus on developing technical skills and learning the law, but few of us spend much time on developing ourselves as leaders or cultivating a network. Scott Westfahl, Professor of Practice Director of Executive Education at Harvard Law School, is here to tell you that technical skills are only one leg of the stool – to succeed in The Legal Department, lawyers must develop their leadership skills and build relationships. And of course, we must invest in developing our teams. Scott shares concrete, practical tips on how to do this. If you can’t make it to Cambridge for the Harvard corporate counsel program, this episode is a sample of the great content it offers.

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Intentional Professional Development In The Legal Department: Scott Westfahl, Director Harvard Law School Executive Education

In this episode, I am beyond thrilled to welcome Scott Westfahl, Professor of Practice and Director of Harvard Law School Executive Education. Scott and I met a few years ago at a mini program that he was doing for a law firm that I worked with. Although it was so long ago, I still refer to the materials I got and I’m thrilled to still be connected with Scott. It’s good to see you, Scott.

It’s good to see you too. I’m honored to be here. I hope I can be of any help.

As we talked before, there are so many different topics to delve into. Executive education is something that not a lot of lawyers think about. We go to conferences. There’s a real emphasis on boning up on the technical law, the substantive legal developments, which is a core part of the profession but I am and my audience is interested in professional development, which I know is what you are all about. I wanted to take a couple of minutes to talk about how you got there because professional development is not a neglected area for most lawyers. Briefly tell us how you got there.

There’s a long and a short. I’ll go with the short version, which is I practiced law for ten years at a big firm in Washington, DC. I enjoyed it very much. What I found myself gravitating towards a lot more was the mentoring and coaching of associates. I ran the summer associate program, hiring, mentoring, all of those things and I loved it. I suddenly had the opportunity to join McKinsey in Washington. I joined their Washington office as Head of Professional Development.

It was like going to the other side of the moon. Everything that I always wanted a big law firm to be doing on coaching, mentoring, leadership, development, feedback everywhere, left, right, sideways, up and down. It was a fantastic alignment of assignments with intentionality toward someone’s development, growth, and interests.

I was there for six years. It was a fantastic experience when Regina Pisa. She was the first woman ever to be chairman and managing partner of a large AM Law 100 firm reached out to me from Goodwin and said, “We’re not doing anything here. I want you to come and build something from scratch in professional development.” I never thought I would go back to a big law firm. I loved my job at McKinsey, but it was a great challenge. She said, “You’ll write a book. I’ll give you a team. Let’s go.”

I did and it was a fabulous experience. Also, pivoting from there. In the middle of that time, I started teaching at Harvard Law School on the side with my favorite professor from when I was a student there, David Wilkins. A few years ago, I was invited to lead executive education at the law school. Our program started in 2007. What it does is fill this gap you were alluding to. It doesn’t even occur to lawyers and leadership development across the arc of our careers. It’s something we have never thought about. Every other profession does.

I got to McKinsey and every two years or so, you’re taken offline for a major training program with peers from around the world to prepare you for your next role. My dad was a nuclear submarine captain during the Cold War. Every couple of years, he was getting a promotion, moving on to a new role, and they would take him offline to prospective commanding officer school with six months of training to prepare him to become a submarine captain. That makes sense.

We look at the big four consulting firms everywhere, the military, everybody is doing this training to prepare you for your next role and we just never built that in. As law firms have scaled to billion-dollar enterprises now, it’s shocking that we still don’t have much in place. In 2007, Harvard Law School borrowed a page from Harvard Business School, which had been doing executive education, and leadership development programs since right after World War II, and started our own program. We have lawyers from all over the world coming in programs for law firm leaders and a great program for general counsel. We do a lot of custom programs like the one you intended where a law firm brings its clients in.

I thought it was brilliant. I get invited to a lot of dinners and retreat-type things. This was so smart. For the law firm lawyers, it was such a great experience. They brought together not GCs, but deputies and associates who they thought were high potential. They also brought Scott and one of his colleagues in and they had some partners or other attorneys from the firm there sprinkled in with us. It was a way to build relationships and then have exposure to this amazing content. I thought, “That is a winner.” If I was ever going to do business development at a law firm, that would be it.

For us, they’re the most fun programs to do because what we see is that the law firm partners who think they understand how hard it is to be in-house don’t know.

They have no idea.

In that room, it’s magic to see. As you remember, the case studies, business school-style case studies, and interactive exercises. By the end of the time period, some of the programs we’ve run are 3.5 to 5 days. The law firm partners are always coming up to me saying, “This has been so helpful for me. I’ve learned so much.” However, in business development function, they need to know how hard it is.

Undergoing Professional Development

It’s a winner. As you were talking about what you did at McKinsey and how it’s shaped your career, I was brimming with questions. One comes from our audience and it was something I think is a perfect entry point for our conversation. She is in a deputy or mid-level role in-house and she wants to continue to develop and one day be a GC.

When she went to her GC to ask, “How can I develop? How can I get to where you are?” The general counsel didn’t know what to say and didn’t have a path, tactics, or a trail for her to follow. I thought, “Wow.” As you said, I don’t that there are any other professional services that you would have this kind of gap. I thought this would be a great entry point. If you were talking to that GC, what should all of us be doing to develop our teams?

I start with the concept of what lawyer development is about. In 2017, Professor Wilkins and I co-wrote an article in Stanford Law Review, and our basic premise was that lawyer development is a triangle of legal, technical skills, and knowledge at the top. Another leg of the triangle is leadership and professional skills, and a third is a network. We completely undervalue the two bottom legs of that triangle in law school and post.

With a person who is trying to reach up and achieve higher levels of responsibility, find an internal or even external leadership opportunity that stretches you, for example. If you can’t find one within the legal department, there is something outside with the bar or something else that you could try to lead to building some leadership and team-related skills. I’d recommend a program like ours, but that’s separate from that.

I’d also encourage that person to remember to build and leverage their network, thinking about things that they enjoy and want to lean into. The research on learning and development shows that if I lean into an area of relative strength and interest, I have geometric growth as opposed to arithmetic growth. If I’m working on a development need, but I don’t like to do that, I can learn, and I can grow, and I can meet that need.

However, if I’m leaning into something I’m passionate about, I would challenge the person to think, “What was your best day at work in the last year? What were you doing? How do you lean into those things more?” Maybe that’s an opportunity and that’s an area of particular strength for you so build those skills. I was negotiating a deal. Can you reach out and find an advanced negotiation course, for example, and become good at negotiating and then start to do some internal training of other people around negotiating?

General Counsel Development

What about for the GC though? We talked about this when we first connected, and I think you gave an example of a law firm you were consulting with about having a metric for the leaders about how many people they’re developing. Maybe talk about that.

I think that general counsel, their attention is highly focused for the most part on their internal clients, the business, the C-Suite, and whatnot. However, with the team, try to remember that, the more you’re able to develop the people underneath you, the more bandwidth you have to be operating at the highest and best use of your time. Also, taking pride in developing a legacy is important. Understanding that you’re going to develop people who are going to leave and become general counsel in other places, that’s fine, but they’re going to be so motivated when you’re giving them stretch opportunities and rotating assignments.

The more you can develop the team members underneath you, the more bandwidth you have to operate at the highest level and take pride in developing a legacy. Share on X

They’re getting to see different parts of the business. You’re getting invested in that way differently. The experiment I tried at the law firm that you and I had talked about was at the end of the year, I had associates completing an attorney development report that was reflecting upon how they build their legal skills, their professional and leadership skills, and their network over the past year.

I snuck in questions at the end including one that they were partner or partners who’ve been particularly helpful to your professional development this year and what specifically did they do? It was interesting to see the reports coming out. There were paragraphs of data. “I love working for Stacy because she always gives me the context of the work. She sits down with me and explains why she’s making critical business judgments. She invests in me. There’s no fire drills.”

All of that positive data and then I sent a note around to the entire firm congratulating the partners who were recognized by three or more associates for being helpful to their development. I gave each of the partners a certificate with the actual quotes from all of the associates who had praised them. I started seeing those on top boards and windowsills. People were very excited to receive them.

A lot of times organizations are doing 360 feedback, but it’s hard because you feel beat up. I wanted to emphasize that strength and that positivity. Also, give people some personal insight into the investments they’re making when they’re taking time to explain why the work matters, for example, pay off, and that they’re appreciated.

The Legal Department | Scott Westfahl | Intentional Professional Development
Intentional Professional Development: When doing 360 feedback with your team, emphasize their strengths and the positives they did. Take time to explain why their work matters and how it is appreciated.


Work Delegation And Productivity

I thought that was brilliant and that the partners were displaying those. It’s a piece of paper you sent with a ribbon on it. We mentioned this about how I have to say the why of why a GC would want to develop their team. It’s the most rewarding thing I’ve done in my career but selfishly, it also expands your wingspan. If you have deputies and others that can take the ball and run and you don’t have to worry about it, then the GC can do their highest and best work as well.

One of the things in our leadership programs, one of the classic cases we always teach is at the core of it, you’re in a professional service environment, whether it’s a law firm or in-house. As you gain more responsibility and take on more leadership responsibilities, you’re not at the same time shedding any of your practice of law. In the corporate world, it works very differently. In the corporate world, if I’m coding at Apple and I’m good at it, I might be promoted to supervise the coders, but I’m not doing the line coding anymore.

Tim Cook certainly isn’t coding. Tim Cook is running Apple yet you look at law firms and you look at in-house legal departments, that general counsel is practicing law, and that managing partner is practicing law, yet they have all of these other burdens on their shoulders. It was one of the first insights that Harvard Business School had when it started studying leadership and professional organizations as opposed to corporations.

It launched the idea that we should have executive education leadership programs for professionals as well as corporations. The program came out of that. If all of those things are coming on your shoulders, one of the best ways to mitigate against that is to have good people you’ve trained who can then get down. Also, one of the hardest things, there’s a great scholar of energy and networks. Rob Cross is now at Babson University, I believe. I have gotten to know Rob over the years. He’s brilliant. Anything he’s written in Harvard Business Review, I highly recommend.

He is studying high-performing individuals. He looks at their networks and he looks at how they manage their time. He’s been working on ideas about networks and delegation. He finds that a lot of the inner psychology we have within us as lawyers in particular, but the high need for achievement professionals is it’s hard for me not to be involved in everything. I have this fear of missing out and this fear of letting go.

Rob’s research shows that when he works with executives to counter that narrative they have to be in every meeting and they can’t delegate. All that fear of missing out, they can retrieve back 18% to 20% of their time is what he says. It’s fascinating. If you’re developing a great team, it makes it that much easier to let some of those things go.

Yes, there’s the narrative and I’m smiling as you’re talking because the mirror is in my face as you’re sharing all of this. One of the things that occurs to me back to your certificate experiment is that we are not as lawyers recognized or there’s no expectation about developing that team. The expectation is to get the work done. When I’ve run retreats or development sessions for my team, I don’t know if you noticed this in any of the work you do, but there’s some antsiness that happens. People are checking their phones. There’s some antsiness that the work that we are doing in this room to help you develop is maybe not as important or pressing as the “real work.”

Most of the people with whom you’re working came from law firms where it’s drilled into your soul that every minute has to be billed and if it’s not billed, it’s not valued. There’s a great book I recommend to your audience. It’s called Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals.

The Legal Department | Scott Westfahl | Intentional Professional Development
Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals

That was life-changing.

It’s by Oliver Burkeman. I got to have dinner with him at a conference a few years ago and it was fabulous. He’s taking on this notion that we have to be productive all the time. I loved how he looked at history and said, “Before the Industrial Revolution, we didn’t quantify time,” and I wouldn’t have said, “How did you spend your day?” There wasn’t a notion that time was money or productivity was critical. You just lived within time. The sun came up, you did your work, the sun went down, and you went to sleep. What have our lives become because we feel guilty if we’re not productive?

One of the things I teach about in our executive programs and for our law students is innovation and design thinking. It’s creativity-based work. What neuroscientists tell us about creative insight is that your brain is a lot more likely to generate those awesome creative light bulb moments if two conditions exist. One is you’re exposing your brain over time to a broader set of data and not just highly specialized. The second is you have to let your brain go quiet once in a while and then things happen. That’s why when you’re jogging or doing yoga or in the bathtub, those ideas pop up because your brain is finally at rest enough to connect the disconnected synapses, and ideas come.

That’s why you come back from vacation energized because you’ve taken an extended pause.

Lawyers are increasingly specialized and narrow the inputs. We work ourselves to death and never rest even on vacation. It’s interesting. When we teach our executive programs, I often have a Harvard Business School faculty teaching along with us and they’re wonderful, but many, when they first start teaching lawyers come to me at a break or something and they’ll say, “I’m not sure they’re getting it.”

It’s because A) Lawyers are more cynical and they hold back more than business executives, but B) They’re just tired. When I teach in executive programs, I know that if I don’t show the exact practical application of the theory about leadership that I’m teaching, they can’t make the mental leap. The business school professors are throwing these things out and their participants are making the mental leap. They’re already imagining how they’re going to apply it when they go back to work. If I haven’t very clearly laid it out for the lawyers in my program, it’s not going to work. There’s no criticism. Lawyers are absolutely great.

Also, a pain in the neck. It’s a certain breed.

We’ve created a culture dependent upon productivity, time, and antsiness. Maybe the antsiness also comes from the fact that we train people in law school to always put the client first. It’s the opposite of what the airline tells you to do, where you put your oxygen mask on first and then you can help others. When they’re sitting in that room getting trained to improve themselves, they’re feeling guilty that they’re not serving their clients, which is supposed to be the first priority.

People in law school are trained to put the client first, making them pretty exhausted and unable to invest in themselves. Share on X

Also, they don’t have a team and it’s that FOMO you said, which is, “It’s only good if I’ve touched it,” or, “I only can vouch for the work if I know and I’ve checked. Even if I trust Stacy, if I haven’t done a double check, it’s not going to be right.”

That’s all part of it too but I think we have a built-in default towards not investing in ourselves.

Absolutely, so when you see that, it’s nice. That audience that reached out, it’s not a surprising situation that she’s in, but it’s something I hope that through this conversation and others, we can help folks in the GC role at least try to broaden their understanding of what’s important as a leader.

Some network layers on that too for that person.

Network Building

One of my favorite things is I like that you call it network-building because networking is like an N-word. Everyone hates that, but it’s so second nature to me because we can’t know everything and so much of how you accomplish anything in the world is through relationships. If you’re in your office billing hours, grinding out contracts or whatever, and not knowing people, that triangle is not equaled out.

Not at all and there are so many interesting ways. If you’re bringing energy into networks, it matters so much how you show up, how you prepare for meetings, and how you interact with other people. I’m an introvert. I type out as an introvert and it’s challenging. When someone says networking, I freak out because I’m not going to go and be the life of the cocktail party and meet everybody but I’m very good at having those deeper, more in-depth conversations, and one-on-one small groups. I think once you understand that it’s about building a network and authentically not in a self-serving salesy way, it becomes fun and easier to do. One of the lessons from network theory is that your best opportunities come from second and third-order contacts and not first-order contacts.

The Legal Department | Scott Westfahl | Intentional Professional Development
Intentional Professional Development: Your best opportunities come from your second and third order contacts, not first contacts.

Have you read Your Invisible Network? It’s Michael Melcher’s book.

I didn’t see that one.

It’s a great book. He talks a lot about it’s not the people that you know the best. It’s the outer rings of your circle.

What you have to do is let the people in your first order of network know what you want, what you hate, and all of those things. I transitioned to McKinsey because I let someone in my first-order network who was not a lawyer and had nothing to do with the law know that I loved all of the mentoring, coaching, and development I was doing in my role running the summer associate program, running, hiring, and whatnot in my law firm.

She got a call from McKinsey one day because she was an alum at McKinsey, and they were looking for someone to come in and run professional development in Washington. She said, “No, I’m not interested, but I knew a lawyer who’d be great.” Suddenly, I was connected to this opportunity which was all of the things I love most about my job in an environment that treasured those things. Also, valued and measured them.

To go back to metrics too, one of the ideas that I’ve been considering for a while, and I gave a presentation back in December to a network of chief talent officers at law firms. There are organizations that try to measure the effect of mentoring. There’s an annual mentor or award and someone is named as Mentor of the Year or things like that. What we’re not measuring in professional organizations that I can see is the cumulative legacy. However, you look when someone retires and suddenly, there’s all these people saying, “This person meant everything to me.” It’s a great celebration sometimes.

It’s like, “Thank God she’s gone.”

However, why are we waiting until the retirement ceremony to name, list, and value that? I’m not sure it happened at the Super Bowl, but when Andy Reid or Kyle Shanahan are coaching, they’ll zoom in and show the coaching tree. It’s all the coaches trained under this coach. Why don’t we have a coaching tree metric where, “Who you have developed and what does your tree look like?”

I had a conversation with a GC about this. This person was getting ready to retire and we were in a conversation with somebody that they had worked with for a long time and listed out all the people that they had worked with who are now GCs or have other C-level jobs. I said to them, “You’re Andy Reid. This is your GC coaching tree. We should be so excited about this.” It was the focus of our conversation.

It’s only retirement. That is exactly why we’re measuring this thing and I think it would be great. Sixty-five percent of our students end up at big law firms when they graduate. They go to a lot of other places after, but they get multiple offers. They come to me and they ask me, “Which firm should I choose?”

I’d say, “Firm macro cultures are all different but when you look at the practice group you’re thinking of joining, can you start asking some questions of them in your due diligence about who are the people who’ve come through here and where they are now.” Some are partners, some are general counsel, and some went to government. If you’re talking to a partner and they can’t name anybody, that’s a problem.

Everyone worked here for 30 years. They’re still billing hours.

I think of a general counsel I know who is legendary for having developed other general counsel. It’s great to see, but we don’t celebrate that. We don’t track it. We don’t measure it the way we ought to.

Work Relationships And Culture

In this chair, if you’re a GC and you have a team, you could certainly make that a metric for people who report to you. What would that look like?

I’m trying to work on this project right now to see what are the indices of development that way. What stretch opportunities have you given this person in the last year? What has been their trajectory? How have you intervened to help them grow and learn in the past year as an example or reported metrics from the people below? Similar to what I said before about collecting data, how has this supervisor helped me learn and grow this year?

I know you talk about this in a team approach, but I wonder about asking, “What do you know about your team? Do you know what Stacy’s goals are? Do you know what Scott’s goals are?” It’s because again, you get so focused on the work like, “You got that deal done.” “Thanks for winning that case,” or you got recognition from the CEO about something, which those are all great outcomes, but not necessarily as we’re talking about what you’re doing to foster team and team development.

Coming back to the team idea, can you create a culture and be explicit about the fact that our goal as a team is when I got to McKinsey, they said our mission is twofold. It’s to serve clients and develop people is how they were saying it and they’re co-equal, they told me, which I thought was great. You want to create that ethic within a legal department, whereas we are committed to serving our business and improving the business. We are committed to developing each other because we do that better.

They feed off each other but there’s that broader mission of how do we look after each other or care about each other? The team is a topic that I teach a lot and I’m passionate about because I didn’t realize until I got to McKinsey that in ten years of practicing law, I’d never worked on a team. Lawyers work in what experts call hierarchical loose working groups where work trickles down from the top and trickles back up but there’s not very much team structure within the work itself.

As an example, when my dad was leaving the dock with his nuclear submarine on a mission, before they untied the ship, he sat down with his officers and they talked about where they were going, what the mission was, how they were going to accomplish, and how they were going to support each other to accomplish the mission. Also, to support their own professional development. The Navy underway has officers and sailors going through all these qualifications and developing themselves. They had all that as a team launch meeting.

I get to the consulting world and then lo and behold, every single consulting project launches with a team meeting where the partner in charge is talking about, “Here’s the client. Here’s what’s happening in the industry. Here’s why this project matters. Here are the individuals on the client team, where they are in their career, and how are we going to make them look good.” Everybody on the team is contributing some ideas about their strengths, their interests, and how they’re going to work together.

It doesn’t take that much time, but it’s incredibly motivating. Throughout the team effort, they would still step back and reflect on how well are we serving the client. How well are we working as a team? They’re checking in on that metric at the end. At the military, there’s an after-action debrief where you talk about what went well, what we learned, and what could we do better next time. In ten years of practice, I never had a single meeting.

You’re now onto the next thing.

I hear anecdotal stories of some people trying this and I know that it’s highly motivational. One of the things that I teach a lot about motive in the programs we do is how to motivate and engage talent. There’s a lot of research there, but one that we talk about is the search for meaning and purpose. We’re hearing a lot about that now from younger generations. I don’t think it’s any different than our need for meaning and purpose. They just articulated better and more frequently because they have more market power now. The market for talent has never been as global and as transparent so they can ask for things that we wanted, but would never have had the guts to ask for.

The younger generations can articulate their need for meaning and purpose a lot better than the present generation. They ask for things older people would never have the guts to say. Share on X

Also, it’s more obvious because the best organizations are doing this so they know what they don’t know. We didn’t know what we didn’t know, but they know what’s happening in other places, which is important. I had a former student. He graduated a few years ago. He went off to a startup and then to McKinsey for four years. He’s been running a family business. They sold to private equities. He’s been successful but he went to McKinsey for four years.

On his last day at McKinsey, he sent me an email, “Professor, I wanted to check in with you. I know you were at McKinsey. I thought you’d be interested in this blog post I wrote about my great time at the firm. I click on the link. I’m reading his blog post talking about all the great training and experiences he had at McKenzie and the great people he met. Then there’s this line and it says, “Unlike people from older generations, I want to find meaning and purpose in my work.”

“I want to waste all my time and bill hours.” “What?” “I just want to get through it.” It’s pretty harsh.

That’s what they see because we don’t do a job. We teach much more in-depth about this in our programs but at the team level, what can you do? Also, at the individual level, what can you do? There’s a whole leadership practice called Public Narrative that started at the Kennedy School here at Harvard. Marshall Ganz was a very famous civil rights organizer. He marched with Dr. King. He worked with Cesar Chavez for sixteen years.

There is this beautiful framework he teaches in the public organizing context, but it’s about storytelling. The three stories that are very powerful to combine is the story of self. Why does this matter to me? The story of us? Why should it matter to all of us? The story of now, what do we do now? He trained all of Obama’s volunteers in the first Obama campaign at the top level in this narrative style.

If you look at important political speeches now, many of them use this framework. The story of self when you start out, “Why do I care about something? Why do I love it?” I thought back again in my ten years of practicing law, I never had a partner tell me a story about why they became a lawyer and why they loved what they do. Yet older partners now walk around saying, “This younger generation doesn’t want to be me.”

How do you know? You never told anybody about you and the same with general counsel. You’ve got to explain and set out, “Why is this worthwhile?” If you want people to follow you, you’ve got to catch them up in your own real excitement for the work and the mission. That requires some vulnerability. It’s not easy, but it can be a powerful tool.

The Legal Department | Scott Westfahl | Intentional Professional Development
Intentional Professional Development: As a leader, you must be clear about why it is worthwhile for people to follow you. Catch them up in your real excitement for the work and your mission, and this requires some vulnerability.

Project Launch Meetings

There is so much there that I would love to continue this conversation, especially about teams. One thing I wanted to do because I heard you say this on another show. In starting a project launch meeting, you talked about asking each team member what they want to get out of the project which I thought was a brilliant thing to do.

What are you hoping to learn and develop? Sometimes you hear some interesting things like, “I ran a pilot of this at a big law firm right before COVID. When we did a launch on a deal project, the associate spoke up and said, “I’m an environmental specialist, but I like on this project to get some broader exposure to the broader transactional part of the deal, if that’s okay,” and they let her do that. She grew and learned as a lawyer. She was much more engaged and happy. It worked out but she otherwise never would’ve had the opportunity to express that and have that opportunity.

I think that if you’re looking at it from the GC seat about, “What’s in it for me?” It’s because I think that’s what a lot of people always do the bottom line. I think what you would get out of giving your team members that opportunity is they’re going to be more connected to you as a leader, first of all. Also, they’re going to be more connected to the project because they’re looking at the project from a personal and professional development lens. It’s not just, “I’m going to get the environmental diligence done on this deal, but “I’m going to be even more invested in it because I’m learning this new part of the law.”

When we’re looking at how you retain, engage, and motivate top talent? People are a lot more likely to leave supervisors than companies.

We do these engagement surveys and the manager or your direct supervisor is the most important connection in the company.

Gallup has found that too. Gallup has Q12 questions that predict employee engagement and they’ve given it to millions of employees now. It’s an interesting survey. A lot of them are dealing directly with the behavior of the supervisor. Does my supervisor seem to care about me? Interestingly, the number one correlated thing I was told was, “Do you have a best friend at work?”

We’ve done that at my company and it’s a question that raises a lot of eyebrows. I get a lot of questions, “What do you mean? Am I supposed to be telling secrets and going to lunch with people?”

I worry because I can see at a law firm where people will start signing best friends. “Bob Mayer, you’re best friends.”

Scott’s Pump-Up Song And Closing Words

Teach to the test as we like to do. Scott, I would love to keep talking to you on this and many other topics. As I said, I was surprised to reflect on how much I enjoy team development and helping folks grow. It’s great to have a connection with you and have all this information and tactics on how to do it better. Thank you for being in the show.

I’m so thrilled to be reconnected with you. Kudos to you for leveraging your network because there’s research on the power of dormant ties. If someone liked you a long time ago, they still like you. I was like, “Yes, I remember you. Let’s do this.” I am honored. I hope that our paths cross again soon. For the audience, please reach out to us and look for our programs.

They’re excellent. I haven’t been to the mothership so to speak, but the roadshow was something that’s impacted me. A little fun question I ask all guests. In addition to thinking about networks and team development, I also get jazzed for work as I rely on music a lot. What is your pump-up song?

It depends seasonally, but right now, the Bob Marley movie One Love and One Love is a great song for a pump-up.

It’s very topical. I like that too. Thanks for being here.

It’s been wonderful. Thank you for the opportunity.


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