Feeling like you’ve hit a compensation ceiling? Not sure how to approach a money conversation at work? In this Office Hours episode, HR professional Patty Carl answers a listener’s question about whether a colleague’s recent retention bonus opens the door for her.

Patty spent most of her career leading HR at public and equity backed companies. Now leading an organizational consulting firm focused on maximizing people, Patty shares her insights on the taboo topic of compensation.

She shares her tips for negotiating a compensation offer during a recruitment, how to position yourself for the next rung at your current organization and best practices for handling the touchy money conversation in almost any situation.

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Office Hours: Cracking The Code On Comp Patty Carl

My name is Patty Carl. I’m the Founder and CEO of Highland Performance Solutions, which is an executive coaching and organizational consulting firm. A fun fact about me is that I once ran with the Bulls in Pamplona.

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In this episode, I’m excited to welcome Patty Carl. She is Founder and CEO of Highland Performance Solutions and a former Chief Human Resources officer. We’re going to be answering an office hours question that I got about negotiating compensation. I did another compensation episode in episode 69 with John Gilmore of BarkerGilmore. He gave a recruiter’s perspective. Patty, who has been on the other side of the table in HR as a hiring manager, is going to help us peek behind the curtain. Patty, how are you?

How are you?

It’s great to see you. I want to also put in a plug. We met through Ready Set GC. You did an amazing session about, I’m going to call it personal branding, but it was strategy around how to position yourself, and we’ll get into that too. Thanks so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

The jumping off point, as I mentioned, I get a lot of questions. This one came from a friend of mine who is an executive at a company. She was aware, learned, and was involved in helping to retain a colleague of hers on the executive team. As part of that, she saw and engaged with the CEO and learned what was available to this potentially departing executive in terms of enhancing compensation and other benefits that this person was able to negotiate. Her question to me was, “Do I have to go out and find another job to level up my own comp?” That’s a real sticky way to approach it. We’re going to get into that. I thought you would be a great person to help my friend noodle through this very intriguing question.

Closing The Internal Market Pay Gap

As a former Chief HR officer, we often had people come forward to talk about counter offers that they had received. We were in a position where we had to either attempt to match that offer or run the risk of losing an important player in the organization. It’s always difficult when it comes to that. Ideally, an organization would try to stay on top of that. To look at where we have our top players who might be undercompensated and how we think about that. Even if we have budgetary constraints, how do we get them to where they need to be over time so that they’re closer to market?

A lot of times, when people grow up in organizations, the market can outpace the raises that they’re getting on an annual basis or promotional raises. It’s a difficult situation when an executive and the organization find themselves with a gap to be closed. Ideally, an executive is able to approach their leader and/or the HR team to talk about that gap without necessarily having to go out and do a search to drum up another offer to try to demonstrate the market.

Triangulating Reliable Compensation Data

There are a few ways that leaders can gather market data to help position themselves for a raise that isn’t necessarily tied to a promotion. These days, which is great. It didn’t used to be true, but there’s lots of public data out there such as salary data. Platforms like Levels or Glassdoor or LinkedIn salary, PayScale. There are a number of them out there that people can leverage to gather some market data about their role. You can’t take any of those to the bank in and of themselves. It’s better to triangulate data.

You’re looking at a few different sources because some of these are self-reported. That is not always a reliable source. You can have conversations with your professional network. If you have search firms in your network, if you have others who are in positions that are similar, you can start to gather data that way. There are published compensation surveys. There are job postings that publish compensation as well as some public filing. If you’re able to gather that information, then you have at least some objective data to present.

I’m thinking about my friend here. Is the first step for her to get a handle on what is the market for her position and get some data before marching in there and saying, “You gave Susie a big old retention. How about me?”

Ditching The Colleague Comparison Trap

Gathering objective market data and relying on that to position yourself is best. It is not always the best strategy to talk about what others got. For one, if you are in a position within the organization where you see salary data and then you try to leverage that for yourself, it’s not always a good look. I personally didn’t love that when I had HR people come to me, or people who are in finance or other, where privileged data is available to them.

I like to rely on objective data and work with the organization to understand how we can work together to get me where I need to be, even if that’s over time. A lot of times, organizations have budgeted for roles. They have some constraints and showing that you understand that and also, are committed to getting to where you need to be because you want to stay with the organization. You love organization and your job but this is something that’s important to you.

Assuming that you are a high performer and you are a key contributor, most organizations are going to work with you. Especially if you’re being reasonable enough to say, “I get it. I’ve grown up in the organization and the market’s outpaced my raises. I’m willing to work with the organization to get where I need to be.”

Market rates can easily outpace annual raises. You don't need an outside offer to start closing that gap. #CareerStrategy #LegalOp Share on X

When we talked in prep, we were also talking about comp not just being dollars and cents and salary, but to look at it as a full package. I wonder if that’s a less direct attack as my friend’s trying to open this conversation with her boss.

Trading Levers In The Total Package

That can work. Looking at the full package can work whether you are negotiating internally or you’re an external candidate coming in. Looking at the entire package is the right thing to do, first and foremost, because not everyone’s situations are the same. I might be interested in a long-term play, i.e., more equity, versus someone else may be focused on salary or another person still might be focused on benefits, 401(k) match, flexibility, health benefits, those kinds of things.

Every internal and external candidate has a different view on what’s most important to them in terms of the compensation package. Organizations sometimes have flexibility in some areas and less so in others. They might have very strict policies around how they determine equity. They might have strict salary bands. Maybe there’s very little that they can do or maybe they’re stuck in terms of internal equity when they’re looking at salary. Having some flexibility in terms of what you’re willing to trade off within a compensation package, not only maybe helps you get to a better answer. It also shows that you’re willing to work with the organization within their constraints.

The great tips on market data, one thing I always try to tell people is you make money on the buy, meaning you do the bet. You set the market as you’re getting recruited someplace. As you were saying from the get go that sometimes your company’s not keeping with the market because they already have you. Doing a refresh through those resources that you shared is a good gut check for my friend and also for the organization.

You might think, “Susie just got a 20% raise or retention or whatever, but maybe Susie’s position is different from what the market is for yours.” This is building on the talk that you gave at Ready Set GC. We were talking about how it can be difficult to position yourself for a raise in your own organization. It’s like you can’t make a profit in your own hometown. You had coached around how to. I’m going to call it marketing or call it strategic positioning. If you have grown up in an organization or been there for a while. How do you refresh and get people to look at you a little bit differently and maybe have you positioned for that next step?

Shifting Out Of The Junior Perception Box

It’s difficult to do that. You have to be intentional because people think it’s neuroscience. It’s a psychological trick that’s played where people anchor to when they meet you. If you came into an organization in a more junior role, it can be difficult for people to think about you as a more senior player. It’s not impossible. It’s just that you have to set some intention around it. A few things that are important. One is, there used to be a phrase, “Dress for the job that you want.”

Now, we’re in an era of business casual, probably. We’re not all dressing for a particular job anymore in a literal way. In a figurative way, you should be showing up as the position that you want. You should always be aiming higher than where you are. If you are, let’s say three clicks down from the C-suite, but you want to be in the C-suite. You should start positioning yourself in the way that you’re presenting yourself, preparing and speaking as though you are already doing in the C-suite.

That doesn’t mean that you’re bossing people around or that you’re trying to have more authority than you do. You should be looking to that group as models and beginning to act in some of the same ways. That means taking a leadership role. It means having a point of view. It means preparing. It means that you might have to change the people you’re associating with. It might mean that you are volunteering for very visible work in terms of where you’d like to take your career.

It also means being very upfront and straightforward about what you want in your career. If you are aiming for the next job or two jobs above yours, being upfront about that with your leader and others can be important to say, “I’m eager to move up. I’m eager to grow my career. This is what I’m preparing myself for. I would love your feedback and your help in getting there.”

One of the most important things is ensuring that you have sponsors within the organizations. People have mentors often. People that they’re looking to for advice and for role modeling. Sponsors are your advocates within the organization. Sometimes they’re the same person, but often they’re not. You need people who are advocating for you when you’re not in the room.

I get asked this all the time, like, “How do I get a mentor?” Which is another topic, but sponsors are mentor plus. Those are people that are your champion that are out working for you. I wonder a lot, especially in a remote environment, how do people develop a relationship that can turn into a sponsor?

Enlisting High-Impact Internal Sponsors

It is tougher when there’s a remote first organization, but it’s not impossible. One thing that I find is that people are always willing to be helpful and people also love to talk about themselves. It’s human nature. I’ve advised leaders to identify a couple of people who are well positioned, and they believe could help them in their career. To ask for fifteen minutes of their time to learn about their journey and see if they could enroll them as a sponsor in that process. You typically don’t go to people and say, “Can you be my sponsor?”

Can you help me?

Never cite a peer's retention bonus to argue for your raise. Bring objective data instead to protect your credibility. #InHouseCounsel Share on X

It’s more of, “I have long admired your career from afar. I would love to learn more about your journey and how you achieved what you have to see what I might be able to learn for my own journey. I can tell you almost no one turns that down because if they’re invested in growing people within the organization and they also like talking about themselves, they will be willing to give you that time. That’s where you have the opportunity to start building a relationship.

You need to come into that prepared. You need to show up. In terms of a specific ask in that, “I’d like to learn more from you because I am aiming for X, Y, and Z.” That allows them to position their remarks but also, you’ve planted a seed for them that’s where you’d like to go. At the end of that conversation, you then say, “This has been incredibly helpful. Would it be okay if I touched base with you in six months?” Now you have a follow-up with them. This allows you to build relationships over time.

There might be other touch points you have where you cross paths with this person. That could be another opportunity such as, “I know that we see each other in the operations meeting once a month. I would love your feedback. I would love to ask for your feedback on how I show up in those meetings, if that would be okay. If I could follow up with you in a couple of months”. Now they’re watching you.

You said this about needing to make sure you’re clear about what you want and that people are aware of what your aspirations are. As you’re describing it, you can do it without being super direct. I like how you’re describing enlisting folks to help you just by sharing in a very genuine and again, not direct attack way.

It’s human nature to be helpful and people will try to help if they can but you have to show that you are worthy of their time and their help.

One of the hardest things I say is people reach out to me and say, “I need help finding a job.” You might as well tell me to find a needle in a haystack. I need to know a little bit more around that. As we’re talking about repositioning and reinventing yourself within your company, it strikes me. As you’re wanting to progress, you’re thinking about comp and what that might mean for me once I’m in the C-suite or have a senior role. In the recruitment process, that comp is a little bit same but different. For all of us, it’s a taboo topic. I wonder, again, with your hiring manager hat. What should candidates be doing in the recruitment process to ferret out that comp question?

One of the things that can be helpful is when they’re having the conversation, ask fairly early on what the package looks like or what are the ranges for this particular role. Frankly, when I was recruiting for executive roles when I was in house, I had those conversations very early on.

You don’t want to waste everyone’s time.

Let’s not waste everyone’s time. It’s okay to have that conversation early. You might decide to pull yourself out of a process. If there isn’t flexibility and it’s not going to meet your expectations. You can then start to anchor. If the range feels like you’re in the ballpark, then you move forward with it. Now, you don’t have something to anchor to when you enter the more of the hardcore compensation conversations. Very similar to when you’re having discussions, when you’re an internal leader.

You want to look at the entire package. Again, the organization may have flexibility in some areas, but not others. This is different than when you’re internal. There is an additional piece to the package, which is the sign on bonus. As you’re thinking about your own desires around compensation, having some flexibility or being able to play with different aspects of the package can be helpful. It shows that you have some flexibility.

Treating Compensation As A Team Problem

It’s important to understand, as an external candidate, that in those compensation discussions that you’re still auditioning for this job. I can tell you that I have been in processes with candidates where we became disenchanted with that candidate because of their behavior during the compensation discussions where they were suddenly playing hardball and demonstrating inflexibility or even combativeness

We’re on the same team here. I want to join your team.

That’s right. That starts to become a canary in the coal mine where we’re getting a preview of what it might be like when we are in conflictual situations, which happen all the time within organizations. You have to keep that in mind. You have to think about it as, “I’m already on your team. Now let’s talk about how we get to where we need to go.” I often think about that negotiation as I’m on your team, we’re on the same team. We’re trying to solve the compensation problem.

Colleagues anchor to who you were when you joined. Start presenting yourself for the seat you want today. #Leadership #ExecutivePresence Share on X

Working with them to say, “I understand you have constraints. I might have some places that have less wiggle room, but others that you have more. I’m very willing to open up these discussions to look at the entire package. Maybe you can’t get me where I want to be year one, but there’s a roadmap to get me there. Maybe year one, we use a sign-on bonus in order to bring me to where I need to be for year one. We then have an opportunity in year two to make some more movement. You start to think creatively about that plan. You can even play with things like PTO. Again, it all depends on what’s most important. You can play with flexibility.

As I’m thinking about this, I like the positioning that we’re going to solve this together. We’re on the same team. A question that usually comes up pretty early and I have a prepared answer when it’s been me in the chair. When the HR, especially for the internal recruiters, it’s harder there than if you have an external recruiter working on the search. What are your expectations around compensation? That’s a tricky question. What answers would you like to see as the hiring manager?

I advise people that they should give some range like, “I know that the market for this job typically yields between X and Y in terms of compensation. Given my experience, I would expect to be on the higher end of that or at the 75th percentile of that range because of what I’m bringing.” Now you’ve given them data.

You’ve anchored to some comp or ratio that you’d like to be at, but you’ve also indicated and I would add the line of like, “I’m open to talking about the entire package.” You’ve also demonstrated some flexibility in having that there would be some give and take within this package. Maybe you can only get me to 50% of that to market, but you can give in some of these other areas.

Getting information about what’s available for the full package and being a little flexible and creative around how to get there. You mentioned the example of having people that you fall out of love with in the recruitment process because they’re a little hardcore negotiating. This shows primarily for lawyers. We have a lot of other readers, but lawyers many times, we’re bred to be negotiators. Also, some folks feel that the audition in the interview process is, “I’m showing you what a great negotiator I am.” That feels like it might be a trap. Can you give us your perspective on that?

I’m so glad you raised it because for some roles in particular, there is an expectation that you’re auditioning. I’m auditioning, so I want to show you I’m a good negotiator, and also I want to show I’m a team player. You can still use these principles to thread that needle. What I would say is, this is a truism, regardless of whether you’re talking about compensation. You can say almost anything if you say it with the right tone.

If you are focused on preserving and building the relationship, you can still negotiate pretty hard for yourself. Paying attention to your tone. By the way, even if you’ve come to the worst result, which is, “We can’t find common ground.” You still want them to walk away thinking highly of you. You never know because they could refer you to someone else. One of those people might come back for you later. They may change their mind and say, “We’ve looked. She’s still the best. We have to pay the premium.”

You still want to have the right tone, even if you can’t even come to terms because you’ve stuck to your guns on something. You can say things like, “I can fully appreciate where you are as an organization. I hope you can appreciate where I am. For me, this is where I need to be in order to make a move. I love this organization from what I’ve seen so far. I hope that we can come to terms, but this is where I need to be.” You can say that. You have stuck to your guns. You’ve drawn a bright line in terms of where you need to be but your tone and tenor has preserved the relationship.

You don’t want people to have buyer’s remorse, or as you said, have the comp negotiations change their mind.

I’ll just add to that, because every time I’ve seen it go sideways, it wasn’t because of what they were asking for. It was because of the behavior.

It does. Thinking back to the example. I think about this not infrequently when I’m doing hiring, I was recruiting somebody who I was excited about and the comp negotiation exhausted me. It made me think, “This person is going to be very hard to work with. Everything is going to be a struggle. Do I want that?”

I just talked with a client who was having exactly that experience. In fact, they were getting ready to make an offer, but they already had buyer’s remorse.

You do not want to be in that position after taking it this far. Patty, thanks so much. This has been helpful for me to think about and also helpful for people to hear the hiring manager’s view of it. As I mentioned, we did episode 69 with John Gilmore. I think the external recruiter wants you to land the job because there’s an incentive there. I end all conversations with the same last question. I listened to music, usually in the morning to get pumped up for the day. What is your pump-up song?

Hardball tactics during salary talks spark buyer's remorse. Treat comp as a shared problem to solve with your future team. #Negotiation Share on X

It’s Heads Carolina, Tails California by Jo Dee Messina.

I love that song, too. We did not go through your bio, but you are from Columbia, Missouri.

I am.

Which is not far from my hometown of St. Louis. It’s not at all surprising that we should share an interest and love of ‘90s country and Jo Dee Messina.

Everything ‘90s country, I’m a fan of for sure.

That’s so great. Thank you so much. That was just lovely. I appreciate it.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

• Patty Carl on LinkedIn
• Highland Performance Solutions
• Ready Set GC
• Levels
• Glassdoor
• PayScale
• Legal Department Compensation Revealed – John Gilmore, CEO Barker Gilmore – Previous Episode

 

About Patty Carl

Patricia (Patty) Carl is the Founder and CEO of Highland Performance Solutions (HPS), a woman-owned organizational consulting firm specializing in executive coaching, talent strategy, and organizational effectiveness. She and her team work across industries, helping businesses navigate leadership transitions, succession planning, and organizational change.

Before founding HPS, Patty enjoyed a successful career in Human Resources and served as Chief Human Resources Officer for both public and private equity-backed companies. She is also a former licensed therapist and holds a Master of Social Work from the University of Pennsylvania. She is certified in a variety of psychometric tools including Hogan Assessment suite, Leadership Effectiveness Analysis, Individual Directions Inventory, Predictive Index and others.

Patty’s experience includes talent and succession planning, executive assessment, executive coaching and organizational design work across industries spanning healthcare, financial services, retail, education, and the nonprofit sector. She has held leadership roles on nonprofit boards, and is a sought-after thought leader whose insights have been featured on the Tedx stage, in Forbes, Harvard Business Review, and Entrepreneur Magazine, among others.

Patty remains passionate about developing people and organizations to reach their full potential. Outside of her professional work, she enjoys adventure travel and spending time with her family.