Ever feel like you’re stuck in place? You have excellent technical skills, get the job done and do excellent work. So why aren’t you progressing? In this Goal Getter episode, executive coach and former GC Sheila Murphy is in The Legal Department to show you how to get noticed as “high potential.” Spoiler alert: no one hands you a promotion, you have to raise your hand. Sheila shares how stepping forward, seeking out feedback and adopting clear, business-focused communication style can help you level up.

Thanks to StreamlineAi for supporting Goal Getters!

Join the Goal Getter community and subscribe to the companion newsletter on Substack to receive actionable career frameworks, diagnostic templates, and professional development tools directly in your inbox. Destination: http://legaldepartmentpod.com/

—

Listen to the podcast here

 

Goal Getter: How To Avoid A Career Flatline: Sheila Murphy Executive Coach

Before we get started, I want to thank Streamline AI for sponsoring the Goal Getter series of the show. If you’re a longtime audience, you know that I met Kathy Zhu in episode 80. Kathy is a former in-house counsel and developed Streamline AI to help you manage the chaos of an in-house department. You know I don’t have a lot of ads on this show, so I’d appreciate it if you checked out Streamline AI.

If you’re a general counsel, you need visibility. Who’s working on what? Where are the bottlenecks? What’s your true turnaround time? Streamline AI gives in-house legal teams structured intake, matter management, contract workflows and reporting all in a single system. Instead of tracking work in Slack, email and spreadsheets, everything lives in one place organized, measurable and aligned to the business. Learn more at Streamline AI.

—

My name is Sheila Murphy. I am CEO and Founder of Focus Forward Consulting. A fun fact about me is that I am on Real Housewives of New York primarily second during one of their charity events.

—

On this episode, I’m excited to welcome Sheila Murphy. She’s an Executive Coach and CEO of Focus Forward and a former in-house lawyer. We are going to talk about some of the stumbling blocks that keep folks from advancing in their careers. She coaches a lot of lawyers and helps people land leadership roles. I’m excited to learn from her. Sheila, how are you?

I’m great, Stacy. I’m so thrilled to be here.

Thanks so much. We’re connected through a mutual friend. I’ve followed some of your content on LinkedIn and heard some of your other interviews. I’m excited to delve in here. Before we get started, can you talk a little bit about your background? How did you get into this coaching work?

I would say there’s a path forward. When I went in-house, I thought that I was going to be able to relax. I was going to have to do business development. I wasn’t going to have to go out and meet people and network. When I went in-house, I realized a lot of the things that made me switch from being a law firm lawyer. I still needed to do it in-house but no one had told me.

I saw one of my peers get promoted ahead of me. I wouldn’t have minded if he was a good lawyer but he was a bad lawyer. I had this a-ha moment that if I wanted my business clients to have good representation and if I wanted to have the impact in-house that I wanted to have. I had to change some of the ways I was approaching my career.

I’m not going to say I turned the switch overnight because I was an ostrich attorney with my head down. I slowly started to build on the skills that make a difference in-house and lead to advancement. By that time, my peer who was not that good lawyer, left the company. He was reporting to me. It shows you that you can switch your DNA because a lot of times they hear from people, “That’s just who I am.”

I’m curious about how you were able to observe the difference between you and your colleague that led to his promotion. I see a lot of times where people believe they’re the better lawyer, they’re more technical, and they know the answers. They get frustrated when they see others progress. How did you determine that it wasn’t just the legal skills that you needed?

A promotion in-house isn't about your legal skills. It's about your leadership and your ability to find a path forward. Share on X

The Power Of Self-Advocacy In-House

One, I knew his legal skills weren’t that good, I’ll be honest. Secondly, I realized I was trying to see what the difference was. He had built relationships throughout the company both with senior legal and senior business people. He was very comfortable telling people what he had done, accomplished and how he had done it.

He was connecting the top dots and working on strategic projects. I made this diagnosis and then I also talked to some mentors and sponsors to get some more insights as to what it took to get promoted because I was flabbergasted. I didn’t even know promotion was a possibility at that point and that he was ahead of me, so to speak, as being considered high potential. It made me take a minute and reflect on what I was seeing and then talk to other people to see if I was missing anything in that space.

Good for you. Very astute. It shows you took a lot of initiative in your own career. I see a lot of people who feel stuck. They’re very talented, smart, and there tends to be a lot of women, by the way. They may be overlooked for a stretch project, an assignment to a different part of the company or actual outright promotion. I thought maybe with your experience coaching so many and being in corporate America yourself, you could share from your perspective. What are companies looking for in the top legal executive?

I used the term high potential before. The high potential isn’t about your legal skills. It’s about your leadership. Can you speak in plain English? Can you frame things in terms of how you move forward rather than honing in on the wrists? Are you looking to connect the dots on how an issue in one part of the company may impact another and come up with a strategic plan to reduce risk overall while allowing the business to move forward?

Companies look at people differently. There are people who are legal technicians. My companies are 6 and 9 box assessment tools. They ranked your legal skills but they also ranked your leadership. Now, and then those with the highest legal skills were not that high on the potential for leadership. That impacted their promotion. One thing I always tell people, which is advocating for yourself, is to ask people when you’re overlooked for these assignments. Not go in like, “I deserve this. I should have gotten it.”

Go in there with curiosity and say things like, “What would I have to demonstrate to be considered for that type of project? What am I not doing when I’m not in that pool of people being selected for speaking opportunities or going to executive training?” Taking the information that you’re getting and coming up with a plan to change a little bit of your approach. It’s hard. It feels scary to go in and ask for this feedback. When you don’t have it, you’re trying to navigate something in the fog without a compass. You’re just blind.

Also, when you see people that take that initiative and ask the questions, as the hiring manager or someone who does allocate stretch assignments and opportunities. To me, it makes me feel like that person cares about their career. They move a little bit into more of a high potential person because people who are willing to invest and learn about how to get better are the folks I want on my team.

There is something to be said for the squeaky wheel. I know you talked about how you see a lot of women not doing this. I can tell you. As a manager, I had a diverse team and mostly women. It was one of the gentlemen who was always talking to me about how he could help me. I got an expanded responsibility. He came in 3 or 4 times and said on day one, “Do you need help? Are there things that you can’t do anymore?” On day 30, “I know you’re now put in this position for 30 days. Is there something?” He did it as a way and I knew it was something to benefit him too. I’ll tell you. Having someone coming in and say to you, “I want to help you succeed,” is powerful.

Overcoming The Ostrich Lawyer Trap

It puts you on their radar. It puts them on your radar like, “I’m going to go to John because he’s already open to taking on more.” We touched on these people that think that being a good technical lawyer is going to get them attention. People too often think that everyone’s watching. They know my great work and they’re going to come by and offer me this job. They’re watching me and then they’re also often disappointed when that doesn’t happen. What do you think they’re doing wrong?

Shifting From Legal Technician To Enterprise Leader

Probably a couple of things. Communication and how you’re communicating is critical. As lawyers, we are trained to be issue spotters, if you think about it through law school, the bar exam and if you are at a law firm. To be that person who finds every possible thing that could go wrong. Since we’ve been rewarded for it, we keep doing it. Rather than thinking about, “This is a business that wants to move forward. How do we get there?”

Not have to prove to everyone where the smarter lawyer in the room by going through all of those risks. If someone comes and says, “I have twenty risks,” but there’s only maybe one or two that matter and you can mitigate them. The business only wants to hear about how we move forward. Not about all these other things. A lot of times, we are our own worst enemies because we’re not listening to what the audience wants, which is a crisp concise way forward. They want to make sure that you’re commercial friendly.

If you're an ostrich attorney with your head down doing great work, don't expect people to just notice and offer you a job. Share on X

I got to say you hit on it. Where the training and the rewards throughout the career up until an in-house position are, “You spot the issues. You know the law. You can tell where all the mind fields are.” When you get in-house, you’re exactly right. They only want to know about the pertinent risks or the clear and present. They don’t want to know every possible scenario that can go wrong because then you’re just a wet blanket.

They can go outside, then there’s no use for in-house counsel. In some of the larger law departments, even for the most junior attorneys, they are still rewarded for issues spotting and then they flatline and they don’t go up anymore in their career. It’s because they don’t make that transformation into an enterprise leader. They’re still stuck in that legal technician bucket.

I almost think it’s like men are from Mars and women are from Venus, scenario. Where people other than lawyers in business are aware of what the game is. The lawyers come in and they’ve been in a totally different game. No one tells them that you’re not supposed to list the ten things that could go wrong with this deal. You’re supposed to figure out how to get the deal done. I see people late to the party and adapting to what those leadership expectations are.

I agree. What I try to remind people of, if you’ve ever been in a meeting with the technology team or the accounting team. You have no idea what they’re talking about and they’re going into all this detail. I go, “That’s what you’re trying to avoid with the legal issues.”

That’s a good example.

We’ve all been in those meetings where they’re going through some programming glitch or whatever it is and you phase out. That’s not what you want. You want to be the person who finds that path forward for them in a way that still enforces them of the major risks but does in a way that is thinking both of the business implications for not moving forward as well as the legal implications.

As I’m picturing myself being in one of those rooms with a lot of white noise, as I call it. You hit on it when you said, clear crisp communication. Lawyers are not trained to do that. We’re trained to give you every technical twist and turn in a lawsuit. What are some ways that we can be more effective in our business communication?

By the way, if you look at most jobs hosted for in-house people, they all talk about a clear concise communication style. It doesn’t matter the industry or the company. It’s a theme. I always tell people when they’re interviewing, we spend a lot of time working on that because people come in and want to do that whole dump of everything they know. The only way they can judge your communication style is how you communicate in the interview.

What I tell people is it’s prep. You’re training your brain to think differently. When you’re starting to do this, think about what you were going to say at a meeting and then do the Mark Twain, “If I had more time, I’d write a shorter letter.” Make it shorter. The more time that you do this and if you go to a meeting and you’re too long. Come back and rewrite it. The more you do this, you’re training your brain to think differently.

Focus on the things that matter. I’m a big advocate of if you can have an ally in important rooms and you tell them, “I’m working on trying to make my communication more concise. Get feedback from them like were you good with the prepared remarks? Once people started asking questions if you get all the defense of and start to go down that path of explaining every single piece. By getting that feedback, it helps when you have someone in the room because you’re more likely not to do it. Getting that feedback may give you insights as to what are your triggers for doing it.

A couple times you’ve suggested that people should say be vulnerable in going and getting feedback if you’re passed over from promotion or whatever, to ask, what should I do differently? As you’re saying to get an ally in the room. That’s a powerful suggestion for people. I’m going to speak for myself. I feel like I was trained to have a code of armor on like, “I’ve got this. I already know. I don’t need help,” and presenting as you’re ready to go. You’re a finished product. What you’re suggesting, at least I’m hearing, is that we should be a little bit more open and vulnerable to try to get some support.

We’re stuck in our credentials. I had a lot of mid-level attorneys. I was at a large company and they had a mentorship program. When I suggested to them that they get a mentor rather than be a mentor. It was like I had insulted them, but they were focused on the wrong things. I thought by having someone else help them, they could grow. At the same time, they were complaining because they weren’t advancing.

Why Elite Executives Seek Continuous Growth

When I was an SVP, I had EVP mentors. I actively sought out people both in legal and the business who could help me get to the next level. My EVP mentor, who is in tech and ops, had a mentor who was the CEO. You’re never so sophisticated a senior that you can’t continue to learn. It’s those leaders who aren’t thinking about growth all the time, are the ones who will be left behind. Especially if you’re thinking about the environment we’re in now with AI. Tons of regulatory change. All these things going on, we need people who are flexible, adaptable and can navigate through the gray. If you’re not doing that, it’s not even that you’re not going to advance. You may end up falling lagging.

Again, this is another expectation in business. There is mentorship. People are open about wanting career development and needing support for that. Maybe this is just my vintage, but feeling like you’re just supposed to know what you’re doing.

If we did, we would have done it. We’re all smart people, but a lot of this is hidden or it feels funny because we haven’t been trained that we must have the answer and the right answer. We will track things down until we find the right case citation that backs up the point rather than saying it’s okay not to know everything. You haven’t been trained in this way, so you have to find ways to get it.

On the point of, it’s okay not to know everything. One of the tips I always give people because I do think that again, with lawyers who were conditioned to know the answer, a lot of times especially in the boardroom or in an executive meeting. I’ll get asked a question and somebody thought of something I didn’t think about. It’s okay to say, “I don’t know or let me look into that. I hadn’t thought of that before.” There’s this perception that we have to present as if we know everything. You’re better to show some vulnerability.

Honesty and transparency to me are a core value that everyone should be working towards.

We didn’t touch on this at the outset but I wanted to dig in a little bit about career advancement generally. You’ve written about a perception or a belief of lawyers that were supposed to just love the job. We’re supposed to feel this intellectual reward because the job is so stimulating or we’ve got these great relationships with clients and we’re close. Aren’t we lucky to have this position? Some people don’t feel like they should be looking for career advancement or looking for that next opportunity. Why is it okay to want more?

You're never too senior to have a mentor. The leaders who aren't thinking about growth are the ones who'll be left behind. Share on X

Wanting more is not just for yourself. It’s for organizations. The better that people are as leaders, the better organizations function. From a personal standpoint, I don’t think I realized wanting more opened up because at one point, I didn’t think I wanted to advance. It was only one promotion and it happened to someone else. I was like, “That’s interesting.” I remember even telling someone, “If I was offered a promotion, I don’t know if I would take it.” I was offered within a week that promotion and I took it within ten seconds.

What I realized about promotions in-house that was appealing to me, it wasn’t about the title or the money, which is always nice. It was about being in the room and having an impact on the business, on the law department, and on the organization as a whole. That, to me, was where I got a lot of satisfaction. There can be different reasons why you want to advance. To me, the greatest one is the impact that you can have and you’re feeling more connected to the business and the people. It also gives you more insights as to what’s going on in the company that allows you to plan for potential things that are changing at a company. I don’t know how to put it other than that.

You did say, though, “I might not take a promotion if offered.” If you think back at that time, why was that something that you were maybe not going to pursue?

I didn’t want people to think I was that hungry or ambitious.

What’s wrong with that?

I know. I also think I was hedging my bets in case I wasn’t asked because you say you don’t want and you’re not asked. No one’s going to worry about it. If you say you want it and everyone thinks you should be maybe getting it and you don’t get it. That’s a totally different animal. There was some self-protection in it, but I did realize in that moment that I am ambitious. It’s okay to be. In fact, I probably should be curating my career that way.

I’m thinking as you’re describing that situation. The other scenario you described where you had a man on your team that was coming into your office. I’m sure he wouldn’t be a helper, but I’m guessing also that those questions were somewhat self-interested.

They were and I gave him all the credit for that. I thought he was doing what he should be doing.

One of the things I want to get out of this conversation is to let people know that it is okay to be ambitious, to want the next thing and to ask for it.

I had a conversation with one of my managers once where I came in with a list of things I needed to work on to get to the next level. She said to me, “If the list was accurate, we would be having a different conversation,” because it had over twenty things on it. We conned it on what I needed to focus on to get to that next level. I came in prepared. I wasn’t looking for her to do certain things for me or to tell me.

I came in with my thoughts and I was like, “This is how I want to proactively manage it. These are the types of Simons that can get me there. This is the type of exposure I would like to have to have suggestions.” We went through it and we came up with that game plan, but it was, as you said, used the word vulnerable. Vulnerable enough to go in there and say, “This is what I have to offer. This is what I need to get to that level.”

Again, unless you’re going to take that initiative and own your career, you could be the best lawyer in the room. People aren’t sitting around waiting to say, “I want to give Sheila this job.” It doesn’t work that way. As a manager, as an in-house leader, what should we be doing to encourage people to raise their hand?

There’s two things. The first thing I would start with someone has to want to advance. I had one gentleman on my team who never wanted to be a people manager. He wanted to get to a certain level. He was excellent. We talked about what would be good for his development for someone who didn’t want to be with people. It’s understanding what people want. It is talking to them honestly about what matters in the room where compensation decisions are made and promotion decisions. Explaining to them honestly where their strengths are and where their opportunities are for growth. I never want someone to come to me and say, “No one ever told me.” That’s as a manager major failing.

CEOs don't want twenty risks from their GC. They want to know the major threats and how to move the business forward anyway. Share on X

I would rather be very candid with you and have you decided not to change. I want you to have the information so that you can make those efforts. Some people go with it and some people don’t. All you can do as a manager is lay out the implications for deciding to take on things that are not. Being honest in the feedback about what they did well, what they didn’t do well and what should change to get what they want.

I will say it’s dependent on the leader. I threw this show and I’ve got to meet a lot of different lawyers in-house. You’d be maybe not surprised to hear how many people feel that their supervisor, their GC doesn’t want them to ask for things or doesn’t see that developing them is part of the GC’s job. I’m shocked by that but apparently, it’s very common.

I had one GC who made 40% of the manager’s rating. It’s how they developed their team. That changed a little bit about how people were viewing it, but it was something I’ve always loved to do. To me, it was important. I also think if you’re not willing to listen to people about what they want and what they need, then it tells me you’re not confident. By the way, the answer is not always yes. There are limited funds, resources and projects at organizations.

Sometimes, the answer can’t be yes to everything. If you’re having a mature conversation about what is and what isn’t impossible and you understand it. It may be as I said, you’re not in that high potential bucket. If you’re not that high potential bucket, it’s going to be hard. The conversation may be, how do I get into the high potential bucket? Not, how do I get that strategic project? It’s having those honest conversations with people. Sometimes there are blockers companies, too.

I hear that a lot. My deputy or my GC is a blocker. I see somebody in those positions who is a blocker as somebody who lacks confidence in their own skills. It’s like, “I don’t want to give opportunities to Sheila because she’s going to make me look bad.”

“She’ll get my job. She’ll take my job. She’ll do this.” It’s common. Some of the best managers I had who worked were probably technically blockers. One of my former GCs would send me job openings at other companies when he was blocked in or feeling it. He was like, “I don’t want you to leave but this opportunity could be terrific for you.”

That’s nice. That’s better.

I take that as a positive, but also at the same point, that person was looking for ways even if they couldn’t promote me anymore for me to have greater impact and things that would flush out my resume. If the blocker left or something happened, things would change up. There are things you can do as a manager, even in tight situations. People have to be willing to hear the feedback. One of the things that happens in interviews is you are asked, what is your greatest weakness?

Again, lawyers don’t want to say they have a weakness. I work too hard. I’m perfect. Perfectionism The reason they ask that is they want to know that you’re self-aware and accountable and you can learn. If you don’t give a real answer to something that you did or had to learn. It says you’re not those three things and organizations want people who are accountable, self-aware and learn.

You mentioned early in your career. You describe something called whisper networks. What are those?

Whisper networks are those networks of people that try to get you opportunities that may not be advertised. Internally, sometimes the term might be sponsor, but you can have them externally. If you look at senior roles, 85% of them come from people’s networks. It’s critical that you have what I call those people you can go to when you’re looking to further develop your career or look for a new opportunity because it’s not just being told about open positions at other companies.

It’s about getting past the robots, or maybe getting more speaking opportunities. It’s about introductions to more senior people who would benefit your career for you to know and have access to. Especially when I’m talking to people who are in transition. Most of my clients get a lot of their interviews through their networks and people just feel icky about leveraging them. It’s critical that you do. There’s some research on this where men do better at using their networks.

Men have more looser connections. Women’s networks seem to be tighter and people that are close to. To go outside that tight group feels a little icky again, but there’s some research that shows those looser connections lead to more opportunities. I had a woman who got several job opportunities by someone she had gone to law school with and had not spoken to in many years. It was mustering up the courage as she put it to reach out to someone she hadn’t reached out to. He was open to it, and he went out of his way to help her.

Maybe this is a personal thing, but when you’re trying to show, “I’ve got it all together here. I’m doing great.” How do you open the conversation with one of those whisper folks?

It may be something simple as showing I love the job I’m in. I am having a great impact. I’m getting to some wonderful things, but I’m going to be honest. I’m starting to get to that ceiling and I need to go someplace work and have an even more significant impact. This is what I’m thinking about and looking for. Be as specific as you can be with that because if you’re vague, like, “I want an advance. I want to do this.” People don’t remember what you’re saying.

I’m looking for a deputy GC or GC at a medium to large sized pharma company on the East Coast or it has to be in Chicago. What is it that you want to have? Are you willing to get the GC title? Do you want to be the first GC? Do you need a staff? Think about what it is that’s important to you and let people know that. If you’re not in transition, say, “You don’t have to look.” This is what you’re trying to find. You don’t have to grab the first thing or the first shiny object.

Wanting more isn't selfish. When you level up your executive leadership, you'll help your entire organization run better. Share on X

In my mind, I’m comparing it. I talked to a lot of people in law school or college grads and they always say, “I just want a job.” That is the hardest question anyone can ask you. I need something a little bit more specific so I can think about who I know or where to direct you.

It goes the same way. If you don’t know who you are and what your strengths are as a leader, as an in-house person, then you can’t let people know what they are. If sometimes you’re like, “I do everything. I’m a Swiss army knife.” That’s fine, but what are you good at? When you go into the interviews and you say, “I can do everything,” then it’s like you do nothing.

Which is hard, though. As the GC, you do have to be a Swiss army knife and you’re coached away from being a specialist.

I misspoke. I was thinking more of what I bring to the table that’s different from outside of my legal expertise. Are you someone who’s great at building organizations and teams? Are you someone who is a process? Are you a technology person? Are you a talent developer? Are you the commercial person that the GC wants next to them because you are so commercial?

I go on these hiking trips. In 2025, I went in two. One, I had a CEO who had a not so small medical startup. He had just sold this company brazilions of dollars. He was telling me how much he hated his GC he brought in. He wasn’t sure if he was starting his next venture, if he would bring in somebody. I went on the next hiking trip and there was a Fortune 50 CEO who loved his GC. She was retiring soon and he was like talking to me because I knew her and I knew about her qualities. None of them had to do with the law.

What were the comparisons? What did the person that hated their GC say?

A risk averse, legal ease, not commercially friendly, didn’t come up with solutions. Everything was, “We can’t do this.” Everything was expensive and overworked. The other one said, “It’s not her legal skills. I can get that elsewhere, but she understands the changing environment, regulatory, society, and what’s going on. Can help people guide conversations in these issues that can be so prickly, as we have so many different views in this country and what’s going on.”

He had a very diverse management team in terms of thought leadership and how people were approaching things. It was someone who could help him navigate through these issues, keep the team together even though these were hot issues. People have strong views, but she was able to help him and the team navigate as a hole through it. He thought that was the most valuable skill.

That’s so interesting. Again, back to where we started. Lawyers think that their job is to throw the risks out there, be the technical expert. In your example, that was worked against that person.

That CEO would never recommend that person. Never. He was a serial entrepreneur type guy. He built these little companies and sold them for a lot of money and moved on. You could have been like an annuity if you thought of it. Where the other one knew she was a good lawyer, but he said it was everything else.

They assume you’re a good lawyer. Otherwise, you don’t get the job. Again, as we started the conversation, it’s more than that. This is my Goal Getter series and I’ve enjoyed this conversation on how to help people advance in their career. My last question is, and it sounds like you’ve been very focused in achieving your goals, but what is a goal that you’ve set that has eluded you?

I have some clients globally. I would like to have a stronger presence globally. I have a client in London. I’ve had a client in Paris, Greece, Columbia and Bermuda, but I would like to have more global clients. That would be one of the things I’m working on.

To that end, where can people find you, Sheila?

You can find me on LinkedIn at Sheila Murphy, Focus Forward Consulting or you can go to my website at www.Focus-Forward-Consulting.com. I do put out a by-monthly newsletter on GC power moves. It has a lot of exercises. If you’re trying to accelerate your career, I would recommend signing up for that.

Thanks so much for being here. I enjoyed it.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

• Sheila Murphy on LinkedIn
• Focus Forward Consulting
• Closed Mouths Don’t Get Fed: Use Metrics To Tell The Story Of The Legal Department With Kathy Zhu, CEO And Co-Founder Of Streamline AI – Previous Episode
• Streamline AI